Let's Eavesdrop on those "Men's Rights" Guys!

Here is a recent conversation I had behind the scenes. There is SO much going on behind the scenes these days -- almost more than I can keep straight. But this will give you a little taste of what "men's rights" people talk about when the world isn't listening.  Mind you, this is NOT inner circle stuff (that stuff would blow your mind!), but the subject is topically important at the moment:

First, my colleague, DJ -- who is quite new to the scene --left a link for me:

[6/4/2013 7:32:46 PM] DJ: Interesting ctitique of MGTOW from RockingMRE
[6/4/2013 7:32:49 PM] DJ: http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2013/06/face-it-mgtow-is-cult.html#more

A day later, the conversation carried on as follows:

[9:12:15 PM] DJ: Did you ever read that article?
[10:00:04 PM] Fidelbogen Yeah, I read it.
[10:00:15 PM] DJ: Thoughts?
[10:00:26 PM] Fidelbogen:  He is talking about the "MGTOW club" --  i.e. the specific  group of people who are currently putting a human face on the MGTOW concept.
[10:02:01 PM] Fidelbogen:  As for the core idea of MGTOW. . . well, so long as the present situation continues, it is a damned good idea for men to "go their own way" and look out for themselves. However, once the situation gets fixed....that could change.
[10:03:00 PM] Fidelbogen:  A while ago, I got in some hot water with the MGTOW club when I questioned the wisdom of public "hypergamy" rhetoric.
[10:04:26 PM] DJ:: Sounds ultimately pointless, similar to the PUA's.
[10:04:48 PM] DJ: We're going to remove ourselves from everything, what will that accomplish? Personal freedom maybe.
[10:04:57 PM] Fidelbogen:  It's politics. It serves the same purpose as a strike. It puts pressure on a system.
[10:05:37 PM] DJ: Eh . . not really
[10:06:04 PM] Fidelbogen:  My main beef with the MGTOW club is their woman-bashing rhetoric. That makes for bad politics. Not smart. Not cool.
[10:06:15 PM] DJ: How many working men are just going to give up their jobs and livelihood because someone on the internet said so?
[10:06:32 PM] DJ: This is probably true, like I said, similar to the PUA's
[10:06:35 PM] Fidelbogen:  Not many working men will do such a thing. But then, who exactly suggested that?  There is nothing in the core MGTOW philosophy about giving up jobs and livelihood.
[10:07:23 PM] DJ: Well if MGTOW is about men leaving the system and not supporting it, then you would need construction workers to leave the workforce en masse.
[10:07:40 PM] Fidelbogen:  Oh no, not THAT system!  It is about men going their own way *attitudinally*. Looking out for number one.
[10:08:22 PM] DJ: All right... but that's hardly any better
[10:08:43 PM] Fidelbogen:  There are a very small number of MGTOWs who actually say such things as "leave the workforce".
[10:09:15 PM] Fidelbogen:  Anyhow, as soon as the situation gets fixed, things like MGTOW will no longer be necessary...but hey, until then....
[10:09:16 PM] DJ: Well I don't study the subject much, I've only heard of it from you and RockingMRe
[10:11:08 PM] Fidelbogen: What you heard from RockingMRe was his interpretation of MGTOW based on a certain clique which has appropriated the MGTOW label. The MGTOW club, as I said.
[10:11:40 PM] Fidelbogen: I personally find THAT group of people tedious and boring. And counter-productive in their political thinking.
[10:12:09 PM] DJ: I suppose, from what little I know of MGTOWs, that it could be used like the PUA belief as a safegaurd for men. Not necesarilly them leaving society, but teaching us to look out for ourselves, each other, and understanding womens psychology so that we might not be manipulated.
[10:12:44 PM] DJ: Well I agree that it's boring, why would I join a group that tells me to go my own way? (Yawn)
[10:13:06 PM] Fidelbogen:  Whether you go your own way is up to you -- that idea is as 'exciting' as you choose to make it.
[10:13:47 PM] Fidelbogen:  But as a male in the present society, you are ON your own way anyway, whether you like it or not. You don't need to "go" -- you are already there! And until the situation gets fixed, that is how it will remain.
[10:14:40 PM] DJ: This is true.
[10:14:54 PM] Fidelbogen:  All right. . . so that is MY take on "MGTOW". Other than that, I find the actual MGTOW club (mind you, not the core idea!) to be a boring lot who talk obsessively about women and relationships as the center point of their so-called "politics".
[10:16:07 PM] DJ: lol
[10:16:15 PM] DJ: It's like a bunch of vegans
[10:16:22 PM] DJ: All they do is bitch about meat
[10:16:35 PM] Fidelbogen: But as for male solidarity and brotherhood....I can't fault it.
[10:18:19 PM] DJ: Well it depends on what they mean by leaving 'the system', this could be interpreted as a lot of things and it's a much broader topic than what they claim it is. So brotherhood and male solidarity are good and I think that's the last we can say about the MGTOWs
[10:18:57 PM] Fidelbogen:  Yes. Leaving "the system" can be interpreted many ways. And my interpretation is nothing more elaborate than male solidarity, and the existence of men as a politically conscious class in society.(When the situation gets fixed, this may no longer be necessary, but that day is still a ways off...)
[10:21:43 PM] Fidelbogen:  Meanwhile....there is something called the First Principles Initiative, which may render this entire conversation moot.
[10:28:35 PM] DJ:: Oh?
[10:29:23 PM] DJ: What is first principles?
[10:29:30 PM] Fidelbogen: Yeah, it's an ongoing project -- "Rome wasn't built in a day."
[10:30:41 PM] Fidelbogen:  But the First Principles are five in number:
1.Personal Accountability
2.Personal Responsibilty
3.Characterization by Merit
4.Non-Aggression and Non-Violence
5.Respect for Personal Property
[10:32:45 PM] DJ: Sounds libertarian
[10:32:47 PM] Fidelbogen:  From these principles, a broad system of philosophy develops. And the implications for feminism will not be healthy.
[10:33:59 PM] DJ: I don't like the non violence part though, it's repetitive.
[10:34:23 PM] Fidelbogen:  It's all for a reason. Violence is not quite the same thing as aggression.
[10:34:35 PM] Fidelbogen:  And. . . this is NOT pacifism.
[10:35:46 PM] DJ:Goooooooood
[10:35:52 PM] DJ: I Hate pacifism
[10:40:45 PM]Fidelbogen:  Yes, there is plenty to be said for self-defense.